Planner: spread charging as much as possible to avoid peak loads

[bolisaf]

Is your feature request related to a problem? Please describe.
charge plan charges the remaining charge after solar at peak power. I want to avoid peak charging as much as possible because of the 'capacity tariff' here in BE:
https://www.fluvius.be/nl/factuur-en-tarieven/capaciteitstarief/gezinnen-en-kleine-ondernemingen

Describe the solution you'd like
in addition to the current functionality for the charge plan, I would like to have an option to start charging right after sunset at the lowest power possible, based on the delta between current charge and target charge, and the time available (sunset to set departure time).

Describe alternatives you've considered
some automation in HA but then what's the use for EVCC...

Additional context
referring to a quote from @andig:
#9550 (comment)

Plan charging tages as much PV as possible and covers the remainder at full speed.

[StefanSchoof]

Sound similar to #9763

[VolkerK62]

in addition to the current functionality for the charge plan, I would like to have an option to start charging right after sunset at the lowest power possible, based on the delta between current charge and target charge, and the time available (sunset to set departure time).

with the latest Version of evcc this is possible. Not automatically, but just with a few clicks.
The Planner shows you a preview of the charging time and the chargePower. So you can adjust the maxcurrent within the ui to get the best solution.

[bolisaf]

@VolkerK62 fundamentally you are right. but the max current setting applies to every charge mode (solar, min + pv, fast). I still want to be able to change to 'fast' charging at the max current possible. this workaround would limit other functionalities that I use. edit: I just tried what you suggested, but I didn't see my start time for my charging plan change as I modified the max current setting.

…

On 29 Dec 2023, at 14:45, VolkerK62 ***@***.***> wrote: in addition to the current functionality for the charge plan, I would like to have an option to start charging right after sunset at the lowest power possible, based on the delta between current charge and target charge, and the time available (sunset to set departure time). with the latest Version of evcc this is possible. Not automatically, but just with a few clicks. The Planner shows you a preview of the charging time and the chargePower. So you can adjust the maxcurrent within the ui to get the best solution. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#11324 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAXHBOI5RWJCBHEQIO7G47DYL3CPBAVCNFSM6AAAAABBGT3BJOVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMYTQNZSGEYDCMBUGQ>. You are receiving this because you authored the thread.

[andig]

What‘s so particular over sunset that it matters?

[bolisaf]

What‘s so particular over sunset that it matters?

usually there's no more solar production after sunset so that can't influence the calculation for minimal charge power to reach the target charge in time :)

[andig]

What specifically is a plan that spreads charging as much as possible? For which cost criteria would that optimise (that's what plans do). I'm not sure why this should become a plan. You can always set mode Min+Solar and adjust the session limit.

[bolisaf]

Hi andig,

maybe if I provide some use-cases it's clearer:

• it's winter, so early sunset at 17h. car battery is at 40% and needs to be at 80% at 7AM. that's 14hours of charging, but the minimum power is 1400W so charging starts at say 21h to charge all night at minimal power
• same as before, only now it's summer and the sun sets at 22h. that means not enough time to charge at minimal power, so the power is increased a little bit to make sure the car is charget at the target SoC at 7AM.
• same scenario, but I arrive really late at 3AM. that means only 4 hours to get the car charged to Target SoC at 7AM, so the charging power is increased accordingly

does that make sense?

[andig]

@naltatis @premultiply is "spread" charging something we want to consider?

[premultiply]

Not really, as it would maximize losses and costs.

[andig]

OPs point is that it minimises costs since he would pay more for power than for additional energy (Belgium amongst others).

[naltatis]

One thing that's not yet clear for me: are we talking about evenly spreading through all remaining hours to keep max power as low as possible or must this now (or potentially later) also work with dynamic prices: "charge in the cheapest hours but don't exceed 5kW if possible". This would change how we'd have to think about the solution and calculate the cheapest option.

[premultiply]

OPs point is that it minimises costs since he would pay more for power than for additional energy (Belgium amongst others).

Ok, got it. But I'm still not sure whether it's really cheaper, for example, to buy twice the amount of energy than to pay for slightly higher power on the grid connection.

[Oberreiter]

@naltatis @premultiply is "spread" charging something we want to consider?

I would like this feature! It is god for the battery and for the grid.

[StefanSchoof]

It is god for the battery

Do you have any data that can support this? Does it really make a difference if you charging below 11 kW?

[andig]

@StefanSchoof doesn't matter. We already have the case to reduce peak power.

[andig]

Replaced by #11654 for getting broader view on requirements

[Oberreiter]

It is god for the battery

Do you have any data that can support this? Does it really make a difference if you charging below 11 kW?

https://ladehero.de/blog/so-behandeln-sie-ihren-e-auto-akku-richtig
https://www.e-mobileo.de/10-tipps-wie-der-akku-laenger-haelt/

[hyperbart]

One thing that's not yet clear for me: are we talking about evenly spreading through all remaining hours to keep max power as low as possible or must this now (or potentially later) also work with dynamic prices: "charge in the cheapest hours but don't exceed 5kW if possible". This would change how we'd have to think about the solution and calculate the cheapest option.

OPs point is that it minimises costs since he would pay more for power than for additional energy (Belgium amongst others).

Ok, got it. But I'm still not sure whether it's really cheaper, for example, to buy twice the amount of energy than to pay for slightly higher power on the grid connection.

@naltatis @premultiply

Just as a reference/background info: Belgium system:

In every month they check per 15 min (h:00-h:15-h:30-h:45-h:00) what your average peak power consumption is.
For that month they write down "month peak power == 7kW"
They write this down for every month
and after a year they do an average of all your month peak power. You get a global single number, let' say 5kW
Every kW has a cost of around 40 EUR. So 200 EUR
If you would charge every month at 11kW that would be 440 EUR

What would be immensely cool (but you got my mind thinking about global costs and how important peak is in general, I am making an Excel) is if you would store the month peak for that month yourself (since you see that data if you have a meter) and adapt per month to allow EVCC to charge this fast since you are already penalized for that month because you did some other things...

I also think you in Germany are a bit ahead of the dynamic tariffs, this is not (yet) a big thing in Belgium and the Netherlands afaik.

By using a boolean "flatten curve/limit peak usage" you can include this logic or not.

Use case in Belgium would be then:

Car is home every night
User sets minimum charge needed for every day via planner
EVCC plans the charge and limits the current to charge the car "as fast as possible but reducing peak or limiting peak" and warns when a the set charging speed will not make the deadline
Load balancer takes into account the set maximum peak or takes this into account by using statistics
Car stops charging because charging planner has reached the target SoC and continues charging with solar if car is still connected in the morning.

[premultiply]

Well setting maxCurrent by API from an external automation system should simply do the trick?

[bolisaf]

I suppose so, but I don’t understand your logic here. I mean with the same reasoning I could just do everything in HA and not use EVCC at all.What we’re asking for here is a new feature to be added to this software. It doesn’t make sense if you then say ‘yes but you can do it using another software’, do you follow me? On the other hand I do understand you can’t add all the bells and whistles everyone is asking for, but here’s quite a few people who seem to be wishing for the same feature. And I’m sure that sooner or later this ‘capacity tariff’ will be introduced in some form in Germany as well ;)Thanks!LOn 3 Feb 2024, at 08:08, premultiply ***@***.***> wrote: Well setting maxCurrent by API from an external automation system should simply do the trick? —Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe.You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[bolisaf]

If this is correct then I’m looking at 440€ bill at the end of this year, and I the money I gained from solar charging doesn’t cover that.Thanks!LOn 2 Feb 2024, at 09:06, hyperbart ***@***.***> wrote: One thing that's not yet clear for me: are we talking about evenly spreading through all remaining hours to keep max power as low as possible or must this now (or potentially later) also work with dynamic prices: "charge in the cheapest hours but don't exceed 5kW if possible". This would change how we'd have to think about the solution and calculate the cheapest option. OPs point is that it minimises costs since he would pay more for power than for additional energy (Belgium amongst others). Ok, got it. But I'm still not sure whether it's really cheaper, for example, to buy twice the amount of energy than to pay for slightly higher power on the grid connection. @naltatis @premultiply Just as a reference/background info: Belgium system: In every month they check per 15 min (h:00-h:15-h:30-h:45-h:00) what your average peak power consumption is. For that month they write down "month peak power == 7kW" They write this down for every month and after a year they do an average of all your month peak power. You get a global single number, let' say 5kW Every kW has a cost of around 40 EUR. So 200 EUR If you would charge every month at 11kW that would be 440 EUR What would be immensely cool (but you got my mind thinking) is if you would store the month peak for that month yourself (since you see that data if you have a meter) and adapt per month to allow EVCC to charge this fast since you are already penalized for that month because you did some other things... —Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe.You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: ***@***.***>

[hyperbart]

Well setting maxCurrent by API from an external automation system should simply do the trick?

You are absolutely correct @premultiply and that's how I am doing it now but there is a certain opportunity for elegance to put this functionality at EVCC. In terms of energy usage and "flatten the curve". EVCC has evolved from an initially PV controlled charging solution to a cost efficient planner/charger and then my rationale is: "if you take into account cost efficiency we can't leave the peak power consumption/tariff behind in the requirements", but of course it is easy for me to say, I am the audience to which it concerns.

For me it should be a seperate mode, you don't have to bother everyone with it but a seperate mode or boolean to take this into account would be a good start for A LOT of people.

[hyperbart]

If this is correct then I’m looking at 440€ bill at the end of this year, and I the money I gained from solar charging doesn’t cover that.Thanks!LOn 2 Feb 2024, at 09:06, hyperbart @.> wrote: One thing that's not yet clear for me: are we talking about evenly spreading through all remaining hours to keep max power as low as possible or must this now (or potentially later) also work with dynamic prices: "charge in the cheapest hours but don't exceed 5kW if possible". This would change how we'd have to think about the solution and calculate the cheapest option. OPs point is that it minimises costs since he would pay more for power than for additional energy (Belgium amongst others). Ok, got it. But I'm still not sure whether it's really cheaper, for example, to buy twice the amount of energy than to pay for slightly higher power on the grid connection. @naltatis @premultiply Just as a reference/background info: Belgium system: In every month they check per 15 min (h:00-h:15-h:30-h:45-h:00) what your average peak power consumption is. For that month they write down "month peak power == 7kW" They write this down for every month and after a year they do an average of all your month peak power. You get a global single number, let' say 5kW Every kW has a cost of around 40 EUR. So 200 EUR If you would charge every month at 11kW that would be 440 EUR What would be immensely cool (but you got my mind thinking) is if you would store the month peak for that month yourself (since you see that data if you have a meter) and adapt per month to allow EVCC to charge this fast since you are already penalized for that month because you did some other things... —Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe.You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: @.>

You doubt me? 😏 Never doubt me 😆 . Just joking!
But yeah... If you charge your car regularly at 11kW at least once a month your fee will be AT LEAST 440 EUR because without a doubt you will be sometimes using more than 11kW for a prolonged periode of time (cooking/heat pump starting up/oven/dishwasher/tumbledryer)

https://www.vreg.be/nl/veelgestelde-vragen/hoeveel-capaciteitstarief-betaalt-u-voor-een-kilowatt

Hoeveel capaciteitstarief betaalt u voor een kilowatt?

In 2024 betaalt u voor 1 kW op jaarbasis gemiddeld over Vlaanderen 39,93 euro (excl. btw); op maandbasis is dat 3,33 euro (excl. btw). Het bedrag verschilt van netbeheerder tot netbeheerder en hangt dus af van waar u woont.

Iedereen betaalt een minimumbijdrage voor zijn gebruik van het net. Die komt overeen met 2,5 kW. Het gaat dus jaarlijks om gemiddeld 100 euro (excl. btw).

Is uw maandpiek telkens 4 kW? Dan betaalt u op jaarbasis gemiddeld 160 euro (excl. btw) aan capaciteitstarief. Hebt u gedurende 1 van de 12 maanden uitzonderlijk een iets hogere piek van 6 kW? Dan kost u dat gemiddeld 6,65 euro (excl. btw) extra.

De nettarieven voor 2024 per netbeheerder vindt u hier.

Alle info over het capaciteitstarief vindt u hier.

[hyperbart]

@naltatis it's not a wireframe (far from it) but I have been giving it some thinking, what does the core team and userbase think of this:

Load balancing is a priority 0 function, if it is activated/enabled it is active on all modes. It is there to prevent electrical outages and stay within circuit limits making sure not to trip any circuit breakers.

• Mode Off
  • EVSE is turned off completely, relais open or PWM control pilot = 0
• Mode Solar
  • EVSE is active, available power follows solar production minus house consumption
  • Only surplus (Total PV Power - House consumption - battery consumption) is put in the car
  • Phases you can choose yourself 1 or 3 or auto
  • You can use the slider to choose how full your car needs to be (SoC % control, If I want to prevent my car filling up above a certain percentage because I don't want to stress my battery)
  • If it is a guest vehicle it keeps supplying power as long as there is minimum solar power 1380W
  • Not enough power? Target SoC will not be met…
• Mode MinSolar
  • EVSE is active, minimum power as defined in MinSolar is delivered and if solar surplus is > minsolar it will charge with more power
  • Same as solar but your car will start charging anyhow and extra solar will be taken with it, basic EVCC philosophy
  • Phases you can choose yourself 1 or 3 or auto
  • You can use the slider to choose how much charge your car needs to have (SoC % control, If I want to prevent my car filling up above a certain percentage because I don't want to stress my battery). EVCC is the controller, not the car.
  • If it is a guest vehicle it keeps supplying power
• Mode Smart
  • Charge to target SoC with efficiency on low power/solar/cost
  • Smart contains a combo of the following potential/user choice enabling options
  • My father, a regular end user at his home wants to have his car ready the next day, with a default setting so all his trips for that day are covered and he wants this as cheaply as possible
  • My neighbor wants his car, ready to drive 2 x his commute and a bit extra, default setting and he will let me know if he needs more or if there is anything specific for the next day (almost never happens)
  • My wife wants our car charged for daily trips (commute + small trips for family activities) and I want to have this as cheaply as possible
  • Planner: the planner allows you to charge as electrical efficiently, cost efficiently and CO2 efficiently as is possible
  • Set target time and target SoC for tomorrow via manual setting or via "default for this car"
    • Boolean 1: ON/OFF Switch in smart mode, Power Shaving: Determine required lowest power kW to charge car at low speeds over planned period
      • Sub choice, overrides boolean 1: "max power peak == X", where the user can enable a sub function of the loadbalancer where the max power from grid never exceeds X amount of kW, a visual indicator will be shown to show the target SoC will never be met...
      • Benefit: the car will continuously charge and the battery will be at the correct temperature and clima will use grid power.
    • Boolean 2: ON/OFF Switch for taking into account dynamic rates, if you have a dynamic rate contract you can enable this
    • Boolean 3: ON/OFF switch for solar surplus charging, if target SoC has been reached you can use this switch to fill your battery even more but you don't have to if you want to keep your battery in better shape and not use the last 10-20-30 percent

[naltatis]

@hyperbart thanks for the detailed input. This is quite a lot of change, you're proposing here :)
I don't see, that we are adding another mode to evcc in this form. But we've definitely also outgrown the initial meaning of our PV and Min+PV modes (planner, dynamic pricing, ...). Replacing those with one or maybe two "smart"-modes that come with configurability is something I think is likely to happen.

We will do a larger mode-redesign once the configuration UI is out the door. If you haven't already seen it, I'd recommend looking in #3530. Even though it has been open for quite some time, we will definitely go through all the feedback and ideas in there before we'll make a proposal for a new mode-concept. I'd recommend you put a reference to this, a small summary of the core changes, in there so that we will find it later.

[hyperbart]

@hyperbart thanks for the detailed input. This is quite a lot of change, you're proposing here :)

No problem, it is not an easy task to combine these functional needs and keep the EVCC GUI powerful but simple. I am not a UX designer but EVCC is an application which is very close to my heart in daily use, you have my support and also a lot of colleagues of mine ;) .

I don't see, that we are adding another mode to evcc in this form. But we've definitely also outgrown the initial meaning of our PV and Min+PV modes (planner, dynamic pricing, ...). Replacing those with one or maybe two "smart"-modes that come with configurability is something I think is likely to happen.

I see. My suggestion for another mode was indeed focused on "no regression of functions". The Solar and MinSolar are stil very useful for me (and I also think for others) because it is very simple and easily to predict usage and SoC

If you would replace them without regressing function or do something like "Smart 1" and "Smart 2" with per user definable parameters then this would of course help greatly. But again: I feel your challenges and this is probably one of the biggest epic/story in EVCC to include this since EVCC has grown from a "simple solar optimised charging" to "EMS Charging system".

We also have to been honest here: we have been spoiled by the power of EVCC. Most people are lightyears behind on this functionality at home, EVCC is not a product you easily deploy and maintain at customers but it is sure as hell the most powerful solution.

We will do a larger mode-redesign once the configuration UI is out the door. If you haven't already seen it, I'd recommend looking in #3530. Even though it has been open for quite some time, we will definitely go through all the feedback and ideas in there before we'll make a proposal for a new mode-concept. I'd recommend you put a reference to this, a small summary of the core changes, in there so that we will find it later.

I have seen it but there are multiple issues/subjects all closely related to the different modes.
I will cross link for sure. No problem, happy to.