2016-12-22-Manuel-Edghill-visit.an.xml

<akomaNtoso>
  <debate>
    <meta>
      <references>
        <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/Audrey Tang" id="Audrey Tang" showAs="Audrey Tang">
        </TLCPerson>
        <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/Manuel Edghill" id="Manuel Edghill" showAs="Manuel Edghill">
        </TLCPerson>
        <TLCPerson href="/ontology/person/::/Shuyang Lin" id="Shuyang Lin" showAs="Shuyang Lin">
        </TLCPerson>
      </references>
    </meta>
    <debateBody>
      <debateSection>
        <heading>2016-12-22 Manuel Edghill visit</heading>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m the expert now on the <a href="https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/principles-for-handling-official-visits-to-digital-minister-audrey-tang/70">visiting protocol</a>.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly, you’re the protocol expert. You’re probably the only person outside our office who has read through the whole thing. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yes, repeatedly.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are you coffee’d out? No more coffee for you?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, I’ve maximized my caffeine intake today.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No more people? That’s it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yes, one more, but I think he’s debugging. He’ll join later.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’re all pretty curious how did you get interested in our...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Here’s the thing. I found a video of you.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>On YouTube?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right, or Facebook. It doesn’t matter. I was like, &quot;All right, this is interesting. OK, Taiwan is doing something very cool.&quot; I read up on you more, and then something ticked, and I became excited. We share a lot of the values. That was what attracted me to email you. We believe in tech as way to create a more optimal government, civic duties that we have, responsibilities, building trust in the government.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(Mark Dai comes in)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Hi, come in. I was just getting started, how I got to stalk Audrey.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I just saw all these check marks, and I viewed it...You’re a lot more techy than I am, but we all did tech stuff and we usually go towards a vision, or we usually follow a leader that has the equal visions as you, for example, for a start.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>When I started learning more and more and more of what you’re doing, I thought, &quot;This person has a vision that I can relate to,&quot; and, &quot;She’s probably going to need a lot of help.&quot; I don’t know how, I don’t know where, or how we could do something, but I just wanted to let you know, &quot;Hey, I’m here.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Some of the things that you said really resonated with me. That’s pretty much how I figured out how to contact you. (laughs) Then I went to your YouTube channel and I just messaged you through there. That’s how it all started. I originally wanted just to...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Have some coffee?</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Since then I’ve been craving this red velvet cake from this coffee shop. (laughs) I almost bought some, but I wanted just to have a sit down and have more casual, but now there so many formalities and so many people here...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I think we are very casual here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>As you can see, it’s like a small start‑up here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Except for that [points at recorder]... everything is going to be public, except for that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Anyway, that’s why I emailed you. I don’t know exactly how or where you see someone like me fit in, but maybe an extra eye and ear that could help you brainstorm an idea, or advice in a particular segment, a bridge. You talked about more transparent communication: transparent like glass, reflective like a mirror?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>These are all things that align to what I hope to find in some leader ‑‑ I don’t want to say like that ‑‑ but a movement. That’s what gravitated me to where I am here today. So, I’m here.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You’re very welcome.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’re pretty transparent, as evidently you’ve probably already read about whatever we’re doing. If you have any suggestions or anything that you would like to contribute, just let us know, or any questions.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Here’s my more philosophical question...where do you see yourself in five years? Correct me if I’m wrong, I feel that now you have this platform, not only technical, but also political, where you could really create this movement that not only changes Taiwan for the better as far as 1) transparency, 2) a bridge to Silicon Valley, 3) a hub of startup, but you could do amazing things. I think that (some Mandarin words).</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, our English is pretty good.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, fantastic. Even better for me. I was stressing already.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You have this group of people that could really, you guys could really do something amazing. I don’t know, I feel like it’s brewing... where I could see where it could go. I just want to let you know that I could be of help if you want me to be.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, certainly. Our entire communication strategy is pretty open. In fact, our entire website, the digital copy of it, is kept ‑‑ discussion boards that you’ve been to ‑‑ vTaiwan.tw, of course talk.pdis.tw. If you want to contribute by copy editing or helping us write more English communication materials, which I now have discovered you’re expert in.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right, I could do that too.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It all depends on what you want to do. Around here, in the office we practice what we call the objective key result, the OKR kind of management, meaning that instead of me dictating where the office is going, I actually ask these guys where they would like to see themselves not in five years, but in three months time, and what kind of objectives each individual personally wants to see happening.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>My role here is to facilitate everybody’s objectives and make sure that they align in some way. We would then collectively determine our office objective for the next three months or so. We don’t plan for five years. For a minister to plan for five years is absurd, because one term is four years.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>How about yourself as Audrey? For example...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>As for myself...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Go ahead.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, I promise to be honest and...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You’ll still be...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>On Earth. I’m not going to Mars in five years. Even Elon Musk is not going to be there in five years.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, he’ll let somebody else do the testing for it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There will probably be some robots instead. Let’s be fair.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case, honestly, I’m pretty much signed up for the public service. It may be in government. It may be in an NGO. It may be in civil society in an individual capacity. I’ve been retired for a couple of years before I joined the government, so as soon as I’m out of this job, I’ll probably be on a similar job doing, still, governance stuff.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You don’t expect to be in policy‑making for the foreseeable future like your predecessor?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Jaclyn Tsai?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No, he was the digital minister before, and then he became the prime minister, right?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Simon Chang?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, Chang is still doing effectively open government on communication work. He’s now working in the Taiwan Mobile Foundation, still doing a lot of policy thinking, working with the civil society.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do you see yourself doing that type of career in politics?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well, it’s not quite a career. There’s no upward path.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Who knows?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Why not? It could be.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Like in the United Nations?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Or Senator Tang, then up and up and up. Do you see something like that...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>From a minister to a parliament member, I’m not sure whether it’s a move up or down, but in any case...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...I harbor no political ambitions. I’m here to do open government work, regardless of whether Taiwan gives me a title or not. I’ve been doing this work for the past few years now, since at least 2012. If you count other sideline endeavors, then it’s longer. I’ve been here for a while doing, more or less, exactly the same thing.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Now I’m blessed with a much more capable team than when I had to do everything myself, but it’s still more or less the same kind of work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So you could only have a four‑year term. What is your goal through that four‑year term?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>My goal is to facilitate everybody’s goal on my team. It doesn’t sound fair, but that’s how OKR works.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>All the pressure’s on us.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I know!</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well you can declare an objective of nothing. You want to do nothing for three months, I will facilitate it.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see. I know that you have three mandates: One is open government, social entrepreneurship, and then youth council.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, but the youth council is actually part of the open government work, because their mandate ‑‑ well, ours, because I’m also a council member ‑‑ as it turns out, is to facilitate open government through direct communication.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s like a subset of the entire open government mandate, but for young people. Social enterprise is something else, of course. It’s a bridge between the traditional NGOs, non‑profit world, and enterprises looking to improve their sustainability or CSR, social responsibility.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That involves some policy‑making, but I’m not an expert in social enterprise. I’m mostly learning from people from both sides and trying to facilitate some things, like the upcoming Company Act rewrite, that takes care of both sides’ concerns. What I’m saying is I don’t have a personal agenda for the social enterprise work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Most of our office time is spent on open government work, planning particular designs around how to get ministries to talk directly with people, with stakeholders, instead of through proxies like media. The media of course is very important as an ally, but we want the ministry to also be capable of operating as their own self-media.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right. Then mostly the work is that is done in this office is towards open governance?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So vTaiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes, like vTaiwan and Join are the two Internet platforms, but there’s also things like Facebook pages and websites of each ministry. There’s also public hearings and city engagement roles in many of the ministries, in particular the Ministry of the Interior.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, side note. I was checking out vTaiwan. What happens if fake accounts start going on a particular...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We don’t vote.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s not voting, because you have some aggregations of people’s voices and opinions. So if, let’s say with respect to the Uber thing, because it’s the easiest to discuss...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Everybody brings that one up...[opens vTaiwan webpage and projects to wall Uber topic]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, it’s a beat up subject, but it’s easy. You have Uber, and there’s clusters of people. Let’s say...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Let’s say hundreds of people register fake accounts and vote exactly the same.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Or I’m the taxi driver, so I tell all my taxi driver friends, &quot;Hey, we don’t want Uber. Let’s skew it.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, that’s exactly what happened. When we invited everybody from the taxi, the Uber, and everybody to contribute, that’s what happens. The all voted very similarly in the first week, and they all clustered in the corners.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You can see with your own eyes that people are divided in the four corners, because we take as finding agenda only the consensus items, then manage to convince people we’re different than they are. They have to come up with something to convince at least 80 percent of the total population, regardless of how many people they get through here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is dynamic threshold. It was 80 percent, because it was roughly a four‑sixths split. We’re taking all of 60 and half of 40 to calculate the threshold. In the next case, it was 20‑80 because there’s some mobilization on the 80 part. The threshold is now all of 80 plus half of 20, meaning that you still have to convince 90 percent of people.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No matter how many people you mobilize, you still have to convince half of the people in the other side.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>To go forward with your particular...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That particular agenda. That’s one thing.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The other thing is that if you mobilize a million people and you vote exactly the same, it’s just one dot on this two‑dimensional plot. What we’re visualizing here is not the weight or the rank between the people’s positions, but rather the diversity. If you mobilize a dozen people, and they vote exactly the same, it’s just going to count only as one point around this mark.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What we’re trying to do is to get a spectrum of stakeholder positions, so that when we’re doing the face‑to‑face deliberation, we can consider everybody’s positions, and it’s regardless of how many people uphold this position.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In fact, the person who wrote this software was a civics teacher who taught Habermas. He insisted that even if there is a tiny fraction, like three people, as compared to thousands here, that holds a peculiar position that’s not share with any other cluster.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>They’ll still show.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It will still show.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, that’s right. That’s how it was designed.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Let’s go back to the Uber thing. Let’s say we’re crowd‑sourcing policy...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The agenda.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The agenda, that’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What we’re talking about, yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>We give them the points of this stuff or everybody brings their own points. What happens if, for example, let’s take a famous quote from Steve Jobs, I think he says something like &quot;If somebody asked the people in the times of Henry Ford, they would have just asked for a faster horse.’</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Would that be applicable here that most people might not see the benefits of having a service like a peer‑to‑peer car sharing?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Maybe.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So then would that be that we are creating policy based on a...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Democratic institution?</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No. OK, yes. I see what you’re doing here.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Isn’t that the point? (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That is the point, but the majority sometimes doesn’t see the long term.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s true, which is why we need to have this reflective space, so that the initial minority positions get time to disseminate into this wider population.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You would note that it doesn’t look anything, the four corners now. This is because, after three or four weeks, they started to cohere ‑‑ more eclectic, more nuanced. More thought is being put into the subsequent ideas, so that when people ranked those ideas, they found stuff they tend to agree with things that are more... considered every stakeholder’s position, that is to say, more eclectic.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is true that, with this process, we can’t count on somebody from the collective intelligence to have the foresight of Steve Jobs, but this is not what this is about. This is about getting something that everybody can live with among controversies.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, I understand.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>OK, you’re welcome, glad to explain. But that was the point, seriously.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You mentioned one of the things that you wanted to do was not be the Silicon Valley of Asia, but more of a hub.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Linking Asia and connecting to the Silicon Valley.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So how come we don’t want to be the Silicon Valley of Asia?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because there’s already a Silicon Valley of Earth.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do we not want to create that type of innovative environment here?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Probably not that particular type.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Why not?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because it’s not going to work. Taiwan’s essence and very peculiar culture towards startups, towards innovation, and towards foreigners… I would, of course, love to have some more Silicon Valley kind respect for diversity or getting more talented people from around the world.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is part of linking Asia plan and educational diversification, so we are not caught in one discipline. But still, with all these efforts, we’re still not replicating the Silicon Valley culture at all. Taiwan has its own culture. Branding it as Silicon Valley of Taiwan just dilutes the Silicon Valley idea and also dilutes the Taiwanese culture. I don’t see anything useful in branding it like that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Ok. So how can we be better than Singapore as a hub?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well I don’t care. Singapore is very good at being Singapore. Singapore doesn’t have 23 million people. It’s a city‑state that excels in what a city‑state does, because it’s very small and it has a lot of efficiency‑minded policy‑making.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Taiwan is much larger, a lot more people, a lot more respect in this kind of consensus‑making, rather than sheer efficiency. It’s going to be a different path. It’s going to be a different model. Taiwan’s better at being Taiwan than Singapore does, but that’s not saying much.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, so how do you see...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I’m pretty uniquely non‑competitive.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No, no, that’s fine. I just wanted to see where we’re going as far as Taiwan and the bridge...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’re going upwards.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Good. As long as it’s that way, we’re good.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Towards the sun, towards the stars.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right. How are we going to get there, the particular aspects?</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Through what we call a convergent boundary between the two tectonic plates.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>When they hit?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We’re technically going upwards.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You mean physically?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...we go up a little bit more every now and then.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Like five centimeter every year.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Something like that. It is true. It’s been like that for the past four million years. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s not what I meant though, but I like that...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s what I meant.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, oh.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You were so happy about it.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m was getting pumped here.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>...not trying to disappoint you, not for this meeting.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is a pretty physical statement, saying that we’re inching towards the sky. It means that we are not competing with anybody else.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, how can we be more unique? Do we have a way of creating this unique Taiwan tech hub?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Sure, yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK. How are we going to do that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>How are we going to do that? By just doing innovative stuff. In the government, we’re trying to find out ‑‑ we have this kind of Agile governance ‑‑ what kind of existing regulations serve no purpose but to block people’s own innovating.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then we’re assessing them on vTaiwan and other platforms, so that we can get everybody a new version that everybody can live with and is somewhat better than the previous version. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Then we do that every time there is someone that says we should review that revision again. This is a recurrent process.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We did that for many things.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’re currently doing this for the securitization of intangible assets, which means that if some company secures a contract with the government, say, that they are going to supply renewable energy for the next 20 years, they could use this government contract to get some loan from a bank, without getting some cars or houses or whatever as tangible assets. That used to be the only thing that could be securitized.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There’s many little, small things like this. Each one, taken together, gets us a better innovative environment.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, so how would you, as in the office of the Digital Ministry, like to create that bridge? You mentioned one of the things you’d like to talk about is creating that bridge to the international community. Do you see certain strategies of doing that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>So far, we’ve just been documenting the tools, the rules, the playbooks, that we’ve been doing. They’re very hard at work on this website. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You mean vTaiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No. PDIS. [pulls up PDIS.tw website and projects its on the wall]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What does PDIS stand for?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Public Digital Innovation Space.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>But if you look at a website you would think it’s public digital innovation service, which works too.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It lists our...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>[reads from landing page] &quot;We incubate and facilitate public digital innovation and service.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, and then it highlights...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>That’s where we need your input.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s the kind of initiatives we’re doing, and if you click &quot;More about PDIS&quot; it shows some backlogs of whatever we did. We have interviews, and then there is also a page that describes the tools that we use for our everyday work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right, you have that Virtual...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...Reality stuff.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, it’s kind of like that &quot;Black Mirror&quot; episode, the one where they...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, I saw that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Everybody has an avatar, and they vote. (laughs).</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, I saw that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, see someone, vote someone.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, exactly. We’re all fans of Black Mirror here.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Don’t watch that if you want to sleep. It’s horrible.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Moving right on.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Basically, like our counterparts in other places ‑‑ you mentioned Singapore ‑‑ there’s a Singapore government agency, that is the Singapore GDS, which is I think a hundred people now? More people than us, though we’re getting there.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case, there’s counterparts like our office all around the world. There is GDS in the UK. There is USDS in the US. There is one in Australia, I think. There is one in Italy.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In many cases, what we’re doing here is just to document the kind of tools that we borrowed from other public sector innovative labs, and also sometimes the private sector, (laughs) then document how we’re adapting it for our purposes, and then share it at the end. We attend international conferences and...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>See if anyone has a tool that we can adapt.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m not here representing the private sector...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Oh, sure, but if you have some tricks that we can adopt in our daily work, just add it here [addresses the site], and we’ll give it a try.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What we are trying to do here is to basically be a meme.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s what you practice here?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, exactly. Be a meme, that is to say to spread ideas that’re worth spreading.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Like TED?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Sure, with ideas that we hope are worth spreading and...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s our motto, &quot;ideas hopefully worth spreading.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We spread hopeful ideas.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Ideas hopefully worth spreading - Digital Ministry of Taiwan.&quot; I get it. [laughs]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;Hopeful ideas, worth spreading.&quot; In any case, what we are aiming to do here is to get each ministry to assign a participation officer. Then we work with POs to empower them to face the cyberspace, to face this kind of civic engagement, also to empower them so they get versed into these kind of data tools that we use.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Now whether they spread these ideas into their ministries isn’t really our call, but at least...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>At least they’re there and...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...they’re there, they’re public, and there is some cross-ministry collaboration. That’s what we’re doing this year. There’s not much space left, but that’s what we’ve been doing.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You have two weeks to finish this up [referencing to the end of the year coming in 2 weeks].</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So this is something that the ministry will be making public and creating...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Holding workshops and whatever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Who will be in charge of that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Everybody.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Everybody here?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Everybody here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, pretty much.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Really? But if everybody’s in charge, then no one is in charge.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Really?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I think it’s the reverse. No one in charge and then everybody’s in charge.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Everyone here is pretty much self‑recharging. We’re on renewable energy.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Now we’re just recharging.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s like some kind of blockchain thing [Ethereum], it is self‑funding.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly, exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>By the way you met with Vitalik Buterin. That guy is insane. He’s wonderful.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are you trying to use some kind of blockchain technology to put behind...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What?</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...vTaiwan for example, or creating some kind of more...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We’re rethinking the new website of vTaiwan, and for that I’d like to hear more input from you as well. So you just...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Stumbled upon this.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You understand the structure of vTaiwan, but you haven’t use it personally?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>But it’s in Chinese. I had to fumble my way through it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s something we’re working on, also.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>And you understand Chinese?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I don’t. I understand context, which is great because Chinese is very contextual. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Seriously? So you read Chinese...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I don’t.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...as if it’s contextual pictographs?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Ah, very handy on a menu.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right. (laughs) That’s a way that we can figure out the UX. Even if the people don’t really understand, at least you could...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...see those icons. See, that’s why icons are very important.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>She makes all our icons.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>No, I didn’t. Don’t put that on me.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>She made the new ones.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Hey, it got me this far.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>She made the old ones.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I made the old ones. Yes, that’s it...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s OK. It got me this far to understanding that entire thing in Chinese. Anyway, are you guys trying to do something with Ethereum? What’s going on with that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>If you are, then we are.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>If I am, then you are?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m not.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then not for now. Sorry.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, come on. You’re much more technically savvy on this than I am.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It is true, yes. (laughs) Don’t rub it in.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What I’m saying is that although I am technically capable of running a blockchain, whatever, I’m not seeing anything in the vTaiwan process that would benefit from a distributive ledger at this point. I’m sure that there will be in the future, if somebody cares enough to do it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>To try to figure something out?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right. This is the idea that you have three or more parties, and neither trusts each other enough to put their ledgers in the same place.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I don’t know if this is even technically possible, but again we are brainstorming. This is why I wanted to do coffee, really relax. One of the debates that you had with David from Uber...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>David Plouffe.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Nice guy.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, he’s great.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...was that he said, &quot;So you want the government to have the control of the policymaking over Uber?&quot; That’s one of his side comments.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, we were talking about the car dispatch. I was talking about how we’re building an API standard so that everybody who has an e‑fleet car can put it on an open exchange, of sorts. In fact, the Ministry of Transport is working on what they call the PTX, the Public Transport Exchange, for something like that, where they share the open data on the traffic data.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You can consume it very easily to do your own traffic analysis and service...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand what you meant. I think maybe the communication did not go through, and then he was like, &quot;Wait, so you want the...&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The government controlling the entire...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;...the platform?&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, traffic platform. I was like, &quot;No, I want everybody to share it.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I think that’s where one of the trickeries of communication went through there. But, that got me to thinking. What if that is controlled in the...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Cloud.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, like in an Ethereum fork. I don’t know. Would that be even possible?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Maybe. It is a very interesting thought. Let’s see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Then it will be self‑governing.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s true. Currently, the airlines, the buses, the city bus here, the inner city bus, registers through machine‑to‑machine interfaces to the Ministry of Transport. What you’re essentially saying is that, &quot;Well, we use blockchain to collaborate with different storage.&quot; [ pulls up https://ptx.transportdata.tw/PTX ]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I’m sure it’s technically possible, yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Would that be beneficial? Would that help? Uber wouldn’t be concerning that it’s a government‑regulated platform, because they’ve never been...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That would be entirely dependent on how the blockchain code is written. The fact that it’s a blockchain doesn’t mean that it’s decentralized. It only means it’s multi‑central, that the initial agreed‑upon rules that can be enforced independently.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Still, there has to be some initial rules, and who gets those rules is...I’m all for redundant backups of these kind of data. Granted, that means that somebody would want to host their own part of this replication. In fact, PTX is already open data.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>By the license, there is nothing preventing you, for example, from starting a blockchain that stores these data, or even makes this without the data. It’s entirely allowed. The fact that there’s nobody doing this probably says that it’s us not knowing sufficient people.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There’s probably already people doing this. They are just not registering themselves or let us in. I’m sure that there’s already plenty of people making use of these data.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is the ministry open to having outsiders from Taiwan creating these type of apps for the Taiwanese government, to be used in Taiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Not at all. It’s just fine. I work with the Ministry of Education’s Creative Commons data. The largest consumer of that data happens to be Pleco.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The Chinese learning app. I have it. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I’m sure you have it. Everybody has it. We did get useful feedback from Pleco, so I’m sure there’s already these kind of collaborations also in other domains. It’s just that I know dictionaries better.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You have good ideas. Go ahead and we’ll try and create it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>(laughs) You mentioned in the email that you wanted to figure out how we could bridge the international community.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Certainly. Now that you know we have a website, it’s a pretty well‑kept secret. We’ve not been advertising it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>PDIS?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, pdis.tw, which...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>With an O, not a zero this time. [referencing g0v.tw site]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s just pdis.tw, which automatically expands to this pdis.nat.gov.tw, meaning the national government.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>PDIS.nat.gov.tw.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That part is optional. You can just write pdis.tw, and it will get you there. This is just to say that we’re still a government agency, of sorts.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case, the entire content here is amenable to change. If you find a better way to say something, or you want to see a new page, or whatever, just post it on the forum, and it will be done. There’s a forum talk.pdis.tw, which expands to talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Now that you know the pattern, you can fill in the rest of them. Then you will see a category here that says &quot;PDIS site&quot;. You will see pretty much the entire website here, what we do, how we work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>This [site] is in English... and this is...that one [clicks link on PDIS.tw category &quot;PDIS site&quot; that opens to another page]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is basically just a link to a speech that I gave. If you see “track”, this is basically a chronological log of what everybody in the office, but mostly me...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are you @chlai? Is that you?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>@chlai is somebody else.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>@chlai is there...[points to outside of office]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Smart Lai is @chlai.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We have 17 people.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>17 people are doing this?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>16, now 17.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Where are they? Are they remote, or do they all fit in this office?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>They’re here and upstairs on the third floor.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>On the third floor. There’s nine people up, and seven here ‑‑ counting you, eight.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Join us!</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah!</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>If you register for an account in this forum, you can basically just look here, and then you will see the entire website, actually. This is my talk. Basically, they just transcribed this, added some photos ‑‑ I don’t remember putting this in, then switched to, &quot;Let’s all keep listening to each other. Thank you for listening,&quot; and changed that to, &quot;Thank you for reading,&quot; which breaks the rhyme. I think it’s more fitting for a website. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case, this ends up here. If you click this [click through flow of PDIS.tw site revisions]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see. Whatever is there in that admin...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s displayed here. At the moment, it’s instant. You will be...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s instant? If there’s a bunch errors like there...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, then you will see a lot of errors...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You’re testing in prod, basically?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That is correct.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Soon, we will have a better pipeline where it was pre‑rendered.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s so good. I see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>If you happen to not speak English, then you can switch to other languages, like Spanish.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Where’s the Spanish? Let’s see the Spanish.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You speak Spanish?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, I speak Spanish.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Oh, that’s great. There’s also Catalan, which is different.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>]Reads spanish text of PDIS site] That’s not bad. Is this Google just translating?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is Google, yes. So we also have the Spanish website.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Very good. Let’s do &quot;the business talk&quot;. What is the marketing strategy behind the Digital Ministry of Taiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s a very good question. It’s a question that we expected you to ask.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, seriously. We don’t yet have a strategy. We give some international talks. She gave, what, two...? [Points to Shuyang]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Two.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...just this year. After coming into office, I gave maybe four or five to our international counterparts.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You did one with Blaise?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes, that was earlier though.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>With the eye thing. It has the eye, retina, face recognition?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That was in January. That was before I was a minister. I was just a random speaker at that point. Then I gave his talk in Mix Taiwan in the Ministry of Economy, talking about the artificial intelligence stuff.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Thanks, Blaise, if you’re watching, for these slides.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>In any case, what we’ve been doing mostly, using this website [points to PDIS.tw] , is just to bring it to our international counterparts, and say, &quot;This is roughly what we’re doing.&quot; It’s a conversation‑starter so far, but it could do much more.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>What do you think?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What do you think?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What do I think about the...?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The digital communications strategy.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Wow, all right. I was ready to ask it, but I’m not so sure to answer that question right now.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>For example...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Take your time.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You can tell us anytime.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We have a Twitter account, but we’re not using it at the moment.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The Digital Ministry of Taiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, we call it Taiwan PDIS.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>@TaiwanPDIS.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>How come you call it that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because it’s the Public Digital Innovation Space. If you have any suggestions, we can switch.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That &quot;digital minister&quot; name has so much punch. I’m talking branding here, like hardcore...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s great. Go ahead, yes. I totally agree. Go ahead.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>A digital minister, everybody in the planet knows what that represents.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Maybe not everyone.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You are a minister.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>This one is &quot;Taiwan’s Digital Minster.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yes, you are the minister, therefore you have some political weight behind, you have some clout. You have a team. You have some kind of power, and you’re in digital... You are in tech. So you don’t have to educate. You don’t have to spend any time, effort, money in reeducating the people.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You read it, and you already know what that is. &quot;Digital minister? Oh, yeah, OK.&quot; - P‑D‑I‑S is like, &quot;Oh, P, P‑D‑I, P, OK. P‑D‑I‑S, what does it stand for? P‑DIS? Is it P‑DIS or PDIS?&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>P-DIS.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Exactly. You have to have this debate. &quot;Oh, and the website is pdis.tw, OK, well, it will redirect you to the nat.gov...forget it&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>What about the GDS in the UK?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Or the USDS?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>USDS?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The US Digital Service.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>If we want to be a counterpart of them.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>For example, you could have the name ‑‑ let’s take Twitter ‑‑ be &quot;digital minister,&quot; and then the &quot;@pdis&quot; a the handle. Whatever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Ah, very clever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Your handle will always be the same, but this handle represents a connection to the digital minister, or the Ministry of Taiwan. By doing that, you’re already educating the people. &quot;Oh, Digital Ministry of Taiwan? Yeah, I know exactly what that is. Oh, PDIS? OK, I’ll look it up.&quot; Obviously, it’s the Digital Ministry of Taiwan.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s great, except we’re not really a ministry, but yes, otherwise it’s...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It says minister on the top.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, but not ministry.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We’re not a ministry.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is this some political stuff? I’m getting confused.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, in Taiwan there’s ministers with portfolio. They are ministers with ministries. I am a minister without portfolio, meaning a minister without a ministry. There’s no digital ministry, which is why I’m a minister without portfolio who works with 16 people somehow. Anyway. We’re just magical.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You have no ministry of 17 people?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, a virtual team here...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>See, that goes back to that whole movement that you’re starting here. You are building your portfolio.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s true. Well, the team is building their own portfolio, and they’re just working with me. In any case, yes, it is true. It is fair, if you call it a portfolio of some sort. I do agree that, of course, “digital minister” itself carries much more explanatory power than minister or whatever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s the first thing I can see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yay! That sounds very good.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Put it on the issue cards.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So things like that... To me, it was a bit hard to find out what you were talking about [in reference to YouTube videos and online articles].</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>A basic way is to link… from the doc… you know that I’m a big fan of linking - I don’t know if you remember when I replied with the doc corrections, I had a bunch of links to outside sources, like, &quot;Please link to article that you’re referring to, so that somebody could easily know what it is that you’re talking about.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>One key thing is the ministry talks about very important stuff. If you don’t understand, you lose it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>While you guys are doing that presentation, and since this is all digital, you can upload it. Things that we talk about, perhaps put the links in the YouTube description, or talk about it in the articles themselves. Link to the outside. That also will help in the SEO, right?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes. Always think of the SEO. That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s affinity, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Also, I wrote one of the ‑‑ going back to SEO ‑‑ I write Audrey Tang, and there’s 10,000 Audrey Tangs, actually.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s not a very SEO‑friendly name.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>If you put all the stuff in there, you put digital ministry...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Then if you put another keyword ‑‑hacker.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK. I’m trying to be the end user. The one that you guys want to influence the most is not hacker, right?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>If you search for Audrey Tang, I think, I’m probably the first five pages.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You’re up there.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s not that hard to find.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s not hard. I did find you after...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Digital Minister of Taiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Taiwan? Maybe you’re going to my Wikipedia page. No, it’s the QZ page. Obviously not going there. Seems they have better SEO.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’ll crack on.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Anyway, brainstorming over coffee here. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s good.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Things of that nature.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Somehow getting people googling, &quot;Digital minister of Taiwan,&quot; end up in our PDIS page. This is great.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That would be one thing. It goes back to what it is that you want to achieve as a ministry. What do you want? For example, in a business, I want clicks on the call to action ‑‑ buy, trial, download. What do you want me to do as a user, or as a person engaged in your ministry? What would you like? Do you have an idea?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see that Audrey is already...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...very much getting you to do our work.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>That was the version we were always thinking about trying.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You don’t have a mission?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I think the mission is quite clear on the website.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The mission is quite clear.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What’s that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We incubate and facilitate public digital innovations…</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, it’s in Español. (Spanish words) Oh, this is wrong. Anyway, see, this is the thing with Google. Sometimes it doesn’t get the context right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You can also say it’s a very broad mission. We don’t really have a call to action.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>This could be a vision. A vision stays forever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>A mission changes every quarter.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>There you go. Come on, put your business hat on. A vision is forever. A vision is why I am here, because I agree with the vision that you are portraying. At least, I don’t know that is in‑depth, obviously. Maybe you have some plans that I don’t know about.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, we don’t.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>No.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>From what I’ve read and what I’ve seen for your guys’ talks. There is a vision there for a more transparent government, a more tech‑savvy populace, scalable, open technology sharing, idea sharing. That’s the vision, but missions are short term tasks, and achievables. (laughs) Why are you so excited?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Let’s say we review our missions every quarter.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It doesn’t have to be every quarter. It doesn’t have to be every quarter.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>It happens quite randomly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK. This is a well‑known...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, this is a well‑known...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Not the safest thing to do...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s a well‑known phenomenon.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The mission, you put the time [refering to time of completion].</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Audrey put &quot;quarter&quot; there, but it’s up to you guys.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, it’s closer here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The mission is what drives towards that vision. What is your mission? It’s still a little...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I think their mission individually is due end of this month, I don’t know yet.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We don’t really have that hard a deadline. I’m thinking about the topic of civic participation, as we have in Taiwan enjoyed right now. We have already sprung from this...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...collaborative community with the private sector and the civil society.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Called g0v, right?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah. Also, one thing, since you bring this up, I have no idea how to get to that site.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You mean g0v?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yes. How do I get to that site?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s just g0v.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah. Did you Google for g0v?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>G‑0‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then you get it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You see what you’re doing? You said, &quot;Gov zero.&quot; I googled G‑O‑V‑Z‑E‑R‑O, or &quot;G‑O‑V, dot, number zero&quot;.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Like this? [pulls up google and searches G-O-V zero]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You can bring that up.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, it doesn’t.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I tried so many different ways.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>With a dash?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s terrible SEO on our part.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I spent maybe two minutes, but I was like, &quot;OK, I’ll just ask her, because I don’t...&quot; Here’s the thing. You talked about it a lot, but there’s no single link anywhere to it where you talked about it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Granted.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right? (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>So nice to have you here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s so nice to have you here.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Do you want to say something?</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Little things like this will create a ripple effect on your international perception. People will start noticing, and be like, &quot;Oh, hey, what’s going on in Taiwan?&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>By the way, if you look at the g0v.asia page, instead of linking to the mostly Chinese page.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You have to stop saying &quot;gov-zero&quot; in your chat, because it’s not “gov0”.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s hard say G‑zero‑V all the time.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑0‑V, Just say G‑0‑V. It’s not hard.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Trying saying that 10 times.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑0‑V G‑0‑V G‑0‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>All right.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑ling‑V, yeah? G‑0‑V? [reference to &quot;ling&quot; being &quot;zero&quot; in Mandarin]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We say G‑ling‑V, and then for media, they start to remember the pronunciation of G‑ling‑V instead of gov-zero.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, I understand.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then you have another problem, because they would type G‑L‑I‑N, or something like that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>See, we have to work on your branding here. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I think it’s catchy, G‑0‑V. It’s kinds hackery, G‑0‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well, it says &quot;hack democracy.&quot; If you look at this landing page, what does it say to you?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>[reading g0v.asia landing page] &quot;Ask not why nobody is doing this. You are the nobody.&quot; Ow.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s harsh. Jesus Christ.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It says you’re a nobody.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s offending, isn’t it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah. I don’t want to be on this site.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Too bad.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is this public?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is public.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I don’t know. I didn’t write this.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I don’t know, (laughs) but that’s like a wiki page there.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>From grassroots, meaning it’s bottom up, basically.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Then just put that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Ah, OK. It’s re‑writable, so we’ll go and change it. &quot;From grassroots,&quot; change that to “bottom up”. Keeps growing. It keeps growing.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right. You have to get that “nobody” out, that’s under the... [reference to g0v.asia slogan]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That is too offensive?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s not too offensive, because we all have thick skin. It’s just the first thing when you land. [reference to first thing seen when visitor enters landing page]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>How would you rephrase that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You land on the site, and then you get punched in the face. It’s not the nicest welcoming.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>How would that work better?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Ask not why...&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;You’re that somebody&quot;?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;You’re that somebody&quot;?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Why don’t we say, &quot;Don’t ask why...&quot; [starts to brainstorm messages on notebook]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it doesn’t work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>There is this paint that you could paint over, and it makes your walls a dry eraser (whiteboard). Did you know this? [pointing to the wall of the office]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s exactly what we did here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, this is what you could do here? You can...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes, yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh!</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s exactly what we did to this wall.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah? Oh, fantastic. Where’s the pen?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>If we’re going to brainstorm stuff, we could just...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>But you can also write it on the iPad here...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I could. I’ll also do it here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, and then we’ll all see your writing, but then it’s easy.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then you can keep the screenshot. Or you can write on the wall.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I didn’t know that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There’s an eraser in the other room.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>You can write on it with a marker? [pointing to the wall]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we can write with a marker.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>We can write here on the marker. Oh, that’s fantastic. Anyway whatever. Where was I?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>“Ask not why nobody is doing this. You’re that nobody.”</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Ask not...all right. (laughs) &quot;Don’t ask why.... Don’t ask why...&quot; What is the page that you have up here? Let’s just center on that. Can we write on top of this? [pointing to projected website on the wall]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we can. We’re fine.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, What kind? Oh, yeah you copied.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You take a screen shot, switch it back, and then you paste it here. Easy‑peasy.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(pause)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Ask not why...&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Minimize it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Ask not why nobody’s doing this. You are the nobody, exclamation point.&quot; [reading over website banner]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>(laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(pause)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, the point that you want to say is, &quot;stop...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;Stop pointing fingers.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Stop pointing fingers. Do something yourself.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You could do something yourself... If you want change, you could do it yourself.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly, and this is a translation from Mandarin, 你就是「沒有人」, which rhymes very well in Mandarin, but obviously not in English...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is it harsh in Mandarin?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>No.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Not at all.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Because in Mandarin 沒有人 is not a very harsh word...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It doesn’t have that....</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It doesn’t have that cultural stigma of &quot;You’re nobody.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;Of no importance or authority,&quot; it doesn’t connote that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Got it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I’m &quot;沒有人&quot;, it’s OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Really!?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;Nobody,&quot; in English, carries another layer of meaning, which is unfortunate.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s very contextual, you see?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s very contextual. By the way it’s now changed. It says “from the bottom up&quot; [Referencing to intro text of g0v.asia text revision website]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Thank you very much.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>(laughs) Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I did credit you for it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right, yes, please.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, I could dwell on this or we could brainstorm more if you want now. Let’s just go through this. So the point of this G‑0‑V...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s a community where everybody can join. There’s weekly, monthly, and bi‑monthly hackathons. - The university collaborations that we’re doing in the vTaiwan project gets done in such gatherings.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I have a question.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Not to nobody.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do we really want to do...I’m just...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Sure, I don’t know. If you think &quot;nothing&quot; is lost and...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;g0v is a decentralized civic tech community.&quot; [reading from g0v.asia intro text]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It sounds academic. I think that was the...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It sounds too academic?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it sounds too academic. If you take some time to read through it maybe, but we need a catchy slogan.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK - you want catchy a slogan of some sort.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right, let me dwell on it. I’ll take that as my action item from the meeting. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Is there any other action?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, we’re digressing. I’m still trying to figure out the missions here. You said one of the missions was clear here, so where is the mission?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s part of that civic participation. The part of, &quot;build tech solutions for citizens in public affairs.&quot; By the way, it doesn’t say grassroots now. If you just refresh, it says “from the bottom up.” [pointing to projected website on wall]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;g0v is a decentralized civic tech community from Taiwan. We advocate transparency of information and build tech solutions for citizens to participate in public affairs from the bottom up.&quot; [reading from g0v.asia’s revised intro text]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The next page is somewhere between a vision and a mission.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s fine.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s what she’s talking about.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do we want...? Yeah, we do want to say &quot;Taiwan&quot;, because we want to put Taiwan on the map. How come it’s .asia not .tw? [pointing out to intro text of g0v.asia]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because the g0v.tw site was in Chinese.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There’s also the English version, but still most of the pictures are in Chinese, if I’m not mistaken. Click English...Still it’s pretty Chinese‑ish.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, but these are a completely different UI here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, but if you click &quot;About&quot;, you get to see mostly the same words. There’s even a manifesto.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Liquid Democracy?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Says we are &quot;sanguine&quot; about it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What’s sanguine?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Means that’s full of blood.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, Jesus.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Put &quot;passionate&quot; instead. ...That’s something, not the worst. [pointing to &quot;sanguine&quot; in the text of the website]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I didn’t do this one. What I did was I end up registering the separate domain and put some more effective English text here. Then...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, and a much better UI/UX.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Somebody else carried on. I didn’t put a graph here. That somebody also put the &quot;Be a nobody&quot; thing here. They obviously like the pun, but there it is also kind of aggressive.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It is.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It shows some...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are we going to transfer the UI from the English to the Taiwanese site?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I don’t think so.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I don’t think so.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Why not?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>We are not running the website on our own. Actually, it’s a community website.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We can do that also, but not before discussions. There’s plenty of projects here, but then, as you can see, is mostly in Chinese. For someone who’s not versed in Chinese, all these are just pretty pictures.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is our goal to put exactly what we have in this Taiwanese website into the international website?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That would be useful.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s a goal we want to do?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>that would be useful. If you are signing up, then I’d certainly not say no.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, but this has the gist of information of what the community is about.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What is the plan to let people know about this site? Do we have a...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Actually, I didn’t know this site before.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, no? (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s not very well-known...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Even within your non‑portfolio ministry?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Even working with her, I didn’t know this.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Surprise! You have more work.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah!</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You were talking about this, and I completely agree, that whenever I mentioned g0v, I should put some link to an English speaking audience. I should at least add this.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Not necessarily English, but at least add that one. [referencing to add a link to at least g0v.asia page]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>At least add that one, which is exactly what I’ll do. Now it says...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Did you give me a...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, I did. I gave you credit in the commit log.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>(laughs).</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>&quot;From grassroots to bottom up, as per...&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Thank you, thank you. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑zero‑V, can you say G‑zero‑V?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>G‑zero‑V. It’s kind of hard.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑zero‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>G‑zero‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because it’s two consonants, GZ in the beginning. Somebody would hear G‑zero‑V or something like that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>G‑zero‑V.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The Z is a little hard?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>G‑zero‑V. You think it doesn’t work? Why don’t we create a slide on your decks with those things then? Then you don’t have to say anything?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s great.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Would that be better?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Agreed.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>When you’re doing presentations...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’ll end with the link here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Just say, &quot;OK, thank you blah, blah, blah. Here’s what you need to know.&quot; Thank you.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>A summary slide.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, I would do that.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>How about vTaiwan.tw, what do think about this website or maybe you don’t really read?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>To me, it was...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>What is an amazing part for you and what is the part that you think could be improved?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Where did it go? [referring to the projected website switching to a blank canvas]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That was mine. That was the slide. That was based on Blaise’s slides, by the way. I will take this style from this, and then the content from this, and then the style transfers. [referring to projected slides of Blaise Aguirre from a previous talk]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it’s very useful. Then probably you can free associate over...[referring to projected slides from revised Blaise Aguirre’s talk on image association]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right, isn’t that insane, the video? Do you have that video? Jesus. That is crazy. Isn’t that insane?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>This one? [referring to video from Blaise’s slides]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is a computer free associating on images [referencing video playing on projector]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...So vTaiwan.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>vTaiwan, yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>One thing that I found on the UX, I don’t understand what...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>This icon?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m just going with UX here. Even if I don’t understand what that is on the top there, why is Airbnb and Uber there? Are these topics popular? [referring to right menu bar on site]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see. The top one says &quot;topics&quot; in Chinese?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well it says it’s preliminary idea assessment. The second gray bar says &quot;under discussion.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, so each of those icons is a topic?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand. Because I didn’t get it, but again, I don’t read Chinese. Maybe that’s why I didn’t get it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, I think it’s because our UX needs improvement.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You could say that. I don’t want to say that. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s why we’re here... That’s why we were here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right, then yes the UX...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>...the UX sucks. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>How about some tabs? An easier way to figure this out is tabs.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Tabs?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You could translate the tabs using Google again, because these are hard‑coded [referring to current text no prone to automatic google translation]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Whatever language, whatever I read this...correct me if I’m wrong, it’ll be great if Tanzania or any other place gets to see this stuff and then, &quot;Look what Taiwan is doing. Maybe we could do something like that.&quot; Isn’t that the purpose?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is the mission to spread the word on what we’re doing here?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The mission is to spread missions.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s right. It’s an infinite zooming mission. [referencing video from Blaise’s presentation]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Exactly.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>To me, this is very focused on Taiwan, and even more so because not all Taiwanese people know this.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s true. Including the Airbnb and Uber, there’s thousands, but it still thousands is a small population...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>We’re 27 million, thereabouts.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>True.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Maybe tabs are a more efficient way of translating to any kind of language. When you have the PDIS, P‑DIS.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes. All right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Something like that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Sure.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Why the topics are on the major landing page?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What’s the logic? Why these four here and the others are here? [refereing to vTaiwan’s menu hierarchy]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Sure.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Because they’re progressing through some steps, but it’s not being made clear that it’s progressing through those steps. Well, I already started fix this step, but we have yet to implement everything.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s fine. I understand. That’s key though. When you asked me about what was amazing. It’s amazing that this is all online and I can read it. That is pretty amazing. But it doesn’t tell me what the benefit of this is. I need to find it out for myself. &quot;Business here&quot;: Don’t ever let your customer...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Figure out on their own.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...Try to figure out what the point of your product is.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, I see that now.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s where we imagine more improvement will be?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, sure.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do you agree?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I do.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it is too visionary and not sufficiently missionary.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It is - &quot;Who will be reading this?&quot; and figure it out from their point of view.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Usually stakeholders, people who have something to lose or to gain from the proposed regulation or change.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are these people tech-savvy? Try to figure out the user persona.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The thing with vTaiwan is that its primary users, aside from the Uber and Airbnb cases, which is kind of an experiment on our side, are mostly people who are lawyers, accountants, professional people who are well versed in using tech to argue their cases.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>What we’re are trying to do here is to get all the stakeholders’ sides not represented, but at least on board with what we’re going to change maybe 30 days or 60 days down the line, and then to voice their concerns. It’s true that in another iteration we had an email box here that let people simply click to fire off an email, that asked...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>To who?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>To the public, that at lists publicly their ideas about this regulation.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You mean fire up a comment?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, that’s the idea, but using whatever the email client prefer. Literally to...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Where will that email be posted?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It will be posted on the talk.vtaiwan.tw board. It’s like a posting board, but public. [projects talk.vtaiwan.tw website]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then of course we also distill it into chunks, aspects of this regulation. This is about securitization of intangible assets. This talked about what’s the current problem with the currency securitization. When you’re trying to secure a loan, what’s preventing you.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Whether it’s sufficient to just register on the company law or website, rather than having some public servant processing your loans ‑‑ sorry, securitization applicants ‑‑ and so on. This basically distills this proposed law change into four or so aspects. In each aspect, you can... [referring to flow of talk.vtaiwan.tw]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You can comment.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, you can click it, and then you can see what’s the existing people’s thoughts on it. Like Jalin says that. RonKuo says that. If it needs some explanatory or expository material, then within seven days the ministry in charge of this has to come here and replay to you as a part of the planning process.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Part of the thing that’s highlighted, seen in this design, is that any comments that’s constructive here will be part of the agenda and the face‑to‑face deliberation that this live‑streamed 30 days every month. This is basically crowdsourcing the agenda of the face‑to‑face deliberation.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, I see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s the reason.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right - so what you just said is what...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, should go the front page.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yes and that’s part of her design. It makes it clear, abundantly, the front page, that this is going to TV and whatever...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You know what would be cool if you want to get people engaged? Have a countdown there.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>A countdown?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It could be something fun, well, engaging. Not necessarily fun, but at least people are like, &quot;Oh, we really have to get people on this thing.&quot; [referring to time running out to pass the agenda]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It says there’s 22 days left and there’s going to be a face‑to‑face deliberation when this runs all the way to the right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is that at the bottom? It’s all the way at bottom. [pointing to vTaiwan’s front page on a cetain topic]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s not at the bottom.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, I thought...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s the page where it came. Oh, you mean the front page like here? We need to have a countdown right here alongside every slide?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s not necessarily a slide.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s part of the design, also.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s just on every discussion.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s part of the new design, also.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, it’s all these blocks here. We refer to crowdsourcing websites [referring to benchmarking UI/UX from crowdsourcing sites]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right, I was just going to say that, because we’re doing crowdsourcing agenda.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Policy...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>They spend millions of dollars in UI/UX. Just use their UI, open source of course.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, and it’s open source.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is open source.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, so we don’t have to rack our brains to try to reinvent the wheel.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, so put a countdown that when it runs through the right, we have a TV show.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That sounds good.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>I’m not sure if we can say we’re a TV show.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I’m pretty sure the new design is coded out. It’s just not populated.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You don’t have the mock‑up?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We do have a mock‑up.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, but I couldn’t open it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>He’s got it. Wow, look at that page. [new vTaiwan landing page is shown on Marc’s laptop as PDF/image]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>That’s the one.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You have airplay?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, you can airplay it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Awesome.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>[speaking Mandarin] OK, we’re asking to airplay it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understood that one.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>OK, then you understood all of this. That’s all of it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Nice photo. By the way, you guys should have a professional photographer here to take pictures. [referring to banner in new vTaiwan mock-up]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We actually do. We have a professional photographer upstairs, but then we’re not putting him to much use.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, put him to use. - What goes in here? [referring to upper banner of new vTaiwan] - Do you guys have a proper site,&quot;digital ministry&quot;?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s the PDIS website.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>But it needs better photos. I get this much.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>The idea is, on the upper part, on this banner, you’ll see a few key topics we’re talking about. Where the...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right. Basically each of them represents a topic under discussion.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>These are each of the topics? [referring to lower part of site with several images]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Basically it’s like most crowdfunding websites, and this says, by the time, 30 days later in Taiwan, this ministry will have a live-streamed deliberation with crowdsourced agenda and participants.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is it important to the viewer to see who introduced this? [referring to particular issue presented up for debate]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Which ministry? Why not?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No, I mean like the person; or no?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>A person...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s a very good point. If we get all the ministers record or at least take a photo for their face online, I’m sure they will increase people’s willingness to participate. Sure, why not? It’s a good idea.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>It’s just a suggestion.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, why do you think so?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Well just personification of an idea.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, better than puppies.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Sure.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>People engage more with a person than a concept, abstract.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Who are the people they are talking about.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, so we can get Professor 朱德芳’s photo from her intro on the Company Act rewrite.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Even if there’s not a photo, at least the name. There it just shows the ministry, right? [referring to current UI]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It just shows the ministry. That’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Couldn’t it be...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The minister’s name, why not? Yeah, “the minister wants to have a chat with you.” It sounds good.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Thank you.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, you’re welcome.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s great.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>That’s why I’m here, to help you out. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, we were originally just thinking about how the viewers can actually relate to these topics.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Engage more.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Actually be more familiar with who are the people actually talking about this topic.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>It’s like talking to people in person. If you know how they look like or how they talk, then you actually have more...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...in common to talk about.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>If you get to talk and you get to know the person, then you have a better chance of creating constructive criticism.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Previously during, for example, the Uber discussion, we did have everybody’s faces next to the words they said.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m not saying necessarily the faces. It’s just more of personifying it with a name, but yeah, faces obviously are a plus.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>So we’re already doing this, but we should do it more, especially on the proposal itself, not just the transcripts.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right... In the meantime: You were in Europe?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, I was in Europe.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Where did you go?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Madrid, London, Paris.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Nice, did you like Madrid? How was that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It was very good. It was the kind of city I’ve seen in the occupy literatures. Now it’s post-occupy, but anyway. It’s one of the major cities in Europe for civic engagement.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are you going to go to Iceland?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Maybe my robotic double will do.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>I sent my robotic double to Madrid a week before.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is it a physical robot or is it a virtual robot?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s a physical robot.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do you have a photo of that?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>They call it Galatea, which is a very romantic name, the sculpture that actually can come alive. So, it was pretty good. I don’t have a photo here. I’m sure I have a photo somewhere.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>The robot is...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Re-presenting me.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Right.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>So you can be replaced by a robot. Is that what you’re saying?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That’s right. This is what this robot looks like.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is it on YouTube?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it’s on YouTube. It’s called “virtual reality for civic deliberation,” where I talk about...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Maybe you should move it here. This is on medium.com?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>This is on medium, and it is also on YouTube. Then this is the robot. I was having a chat with...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You dressed it up?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, they dress it up, literally.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Can I see it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, it rotates and circles...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You’re talking? I’m guessing it’s projecting your face?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, and this is 360 camera outside. You can watch the VR replay. This is Pablo Soto, a city council member. It’s pretty nice.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Who made it?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Local hackers.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Really? That’s great.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, they did it with what they call a turtlebot. All right, so we got a...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(vTaiwan live mock-up pages goes up on projector.)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are we in?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we’re in.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>This is a mock‑up of...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Of the next generation of vTaiwan.tw.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yes, topic here in big groups and topics.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, so these are the topics?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are these the top hottest topics? How are you going to dictate what goes up in the banner?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Probably the newest. The one that’s up...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, that is under discussion, with a status of &quot;under discussion,&quot; and something like, &quot;It’s already delivered to the parliament.” There’s some explanations of what you can do in different stages.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>If it’s delivered to the executive yuan meeting, then why is it in the banner?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>If people really care about this topic, they want to know the outcome.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>But then it’s not the newest.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>It’s on one level.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is true that we only have two active topics. Then it describes those three stages.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>There’s search by topic I assume - the topic that I’m interested on there?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The kinds of topics, I’ll say, yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Can I search for a person? I don’t know what the name is (of the topic), but I know that Audrey Tang is...or I know that.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We can pass some search suggestions here.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>And your topics.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>And how many days are left. But it doesn’t show a photo of a person.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>No, you don’t have to go for it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>No, I think it helps.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Then, for example, what happened to the Uber and Airbnb topics?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’ll be one of those small boxes.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>At the bottom?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>At the bottom, that says it’s finished.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is that what that says at the bottom?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, sure. It’s different stages.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, all right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The new design is completely redone. Here, you will see that at the project is finished.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Actually, you can just…</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(alarm sounds from outside.)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s saying that we should probably go back home soon‑ish.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Is that what that means? They literally kick you out?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Mm‑hmm. They turn off air conditioning and everything. It’s true.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Preliminary steps, and then here you have topics and categories, which are the key issues on this session.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Our archive and whatever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Are these tabs?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Tabs of the stages.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, but it doesn’t have &quot;finished.&quot; I just noticed.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It says &quot;under discussion&quot;, &quot;other drafts&quot;, &quot;about to begin&quot;, but no &quot;result&quot;.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Maybe we might want to put that there.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we might want to...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I will make them big. Look at all this empty space. This is important.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>And with icons, always.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Here are topics, maybe under ministries, like education, labor, culture. or technology.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Can it go here? These are the topics? [referring to bottom part of new mock-up]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, topic areas.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, then introduce me. Or, if this stage is going to be forever long, why don’t we try to get some tab system under the main banner that will split this? All this are lazy-loaded, right? [pointing to long list of images/topics]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>(laughs) OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Sure.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I would imagine.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Here is the manual.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>How to leave useful comments. How to make use for contributions. Why are some comments marked, highlighted. That means that they entered the agenda.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>OK, so like a users’ manual here?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right, and then you can also have a petition. This platform doesn’t do petitions, so we redirect them to another petition platform, where they can do a petition.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>It’s Join.gov.tw?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, if you petition, 5,000 people...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>This is a different website?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Platform, that’s right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I see.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we don’t do petitions in vTaiwan. We do it in Join.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Here it talks about the purpose...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Why is vTaiwan useful? Why should you care? It’s basically the same text, but presented in a...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>What is the call to action? What do you me to do? Engage on this...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>To subscribe to one of or more topic areas, so you know when there’s a live stream going on, or if there’s a resolution. Or if you care about one particular topic, then you go in and then...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Can I sign up and get feedback? I don’t want to be coming back here all the time to see if my resolution that I’m involved with...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Resolution notifications.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Do I have a newsletter or sign‑up?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>There was a monthly newsletter.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Maybe like an RSS feed?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Sure. Currently there’s no sign‑up on the new UI. On the old UI, a soon as you leave a comment or you participate in any of those activities, and you consent to get your email shared with our monthly newsletter, there’s an opt‑in thing.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’re still trying to figure out whether opting out is ethical, by default. They used to be opt‑in. The first time you’re leaving something, you consent it to, if you want, further newsletters from us.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Well it’s much better, a huge improvement. [referring to new mockup]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It is a huge improvement.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>These are under review right? These are topics under review. Is that what that says here? [pointing to section of mock-up]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It says it’s &quot;hot&quot;, but they have to be under this section.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>A feature.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, featured.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All are able to link to Google Translate, automatically?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, we will do that. Instead of English, you can translate to Spanish. It’s going to be Chinese by default, but with a Google Translate in English that you can translate to English or Spanish. If we’re going to flip it...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I would put these bigger. I would create some divide between each section. Is that our logo, vTaiwan?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, this is our logo: Two anarchies.</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right. How come it’s V? Victory?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It used to mean virtual.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Virtual, oh, OK.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Then it could be interpreted any which way now. It could be venture. It could be whatever.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Virtual is OK. &quot;Virtual&quot;, that would work. &quot;Virtual crowdsourcing policy agenda&quot;. (laughs)</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Virtually. This is going up next month or something.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>Yeah, we just heard about it.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>We’ll see. With it, we have better engagement and more people wanting to leave their email so they receive our monthly newsletters. That’s the main idea.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I’m just trying to figure out the more efficient way to do this, because if you have a picture for every...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Proposal.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>...proposal, the idea is to be scalable. We have so many proposals here that everybody’s engaged in each aspect of politics, so you have to have somebody figuring out how are we going to scale up?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well by having every ministry approve...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>&quot;Please provide a photo for your proposal by 3:00 PM.&quot;</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Well it’s similar. That’s part of their job training, though.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh really?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, there’s three core skill sets we’re training. One is what we call translation, meaning translating hardcore proposal, legal text, into something people can understand. A logo and a photo is part of the translation.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>The second is facilitation. It could be facilitating useful comments from online also face‑to‑face deliberation and consultation.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Finally, there’s recording which says you need to be accountable in publishing all the video and transcribe every course and every decision they make, and to build an audit trail with proper credit to who suggested the change.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>You’re giving credit to the...?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>The person who suggested the change.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah? How does that work? Through the system?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, through the system. You can see...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Like a peer‑to‑peer rating kind of thing?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>It’s not a peer‑to‑peer rating. It’s basically just a thank you, a due credit of sorts. It just says we thank these people for proposing this useful agenda.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand. I had the wrong definition of &quot;credit&quot;.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Oh, yeah. Credit as in movie credits, not as in...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>I understand. I was like, &quot;Oh, wow. It’s amazing.&quot; But no, you mean &quot;transcribed by Manuel Edghill,&quot; that kind of credit. Well you have to remember the frame of mind I’m coming from here... [laughs]</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Right.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>All right, different kind of credit. That’s perfect. All right, so how can I help?</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You can help...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Shuyang Lin">
          <p>The site and you can...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Oh, translate. That’s easy.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>You can work on the hard part, which is the marketing strategy. Pretty soon, by the end of the year, we’ll have some objectives or missions that we want to get across. Our English or our conversation ability may not be so good that people who look at this website and know immediately what our objectives for the quarter are.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>That is something maybe you can help with by just focusing people who find out about PDIS. I’m pretty sure that they have to see &quot;digital minister&quot; somewhere on this page now. Aside from that...</p>
        </speech>
        <narrative>
          <p>
            <i>(laughter)</i>
          </p>
        </narrative>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>...better techs and photos, better copies and better call to action. Currently our call to action is mostly just linking to vTaiwan and &quot;Join&quot;, but maybe we want to be more explicit.</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Manuel Edghill">
          <p>Yeah, goal, mission, vision, I don’t know. See yourself as, I know it sounds awkward, but as a business that’s trying to...</p>
        </speech>
        <speech by="#Audrey Tang">
          <p>Yeah, a start‑up.</p>
        </speech>
      </debateSection>
    </debateBody>
  </debate>
</akomaNtoso>